Bro, you have said a lot. Now that I have time, I will respond to everything that
you have said, piece by piece.
You said, "Hitchens is not your average
sinner that we deal with every day." What do you mean by this? In my opinion,
that... is EXACTLY what he is...he has just been put on a stage where he has become
more influential, that's all. AND because of his influence, he will be more accountable
to God...should he die in his sin
I mean is that Hitchens is not someone who is enslaved to sin through ignorance
and is only interested in living out his life gratifying the lusts of his flesh.
Hitchens, for whatever reasons, has declared war on God. He is actively trying
to destroy faith in God, and has been most of his life. Something happened in
his life that caused Hitchens to hate God. If you can't see the difference, then
perhaps you ought to rethink your rose colored view of sinners.
You said, "He is not the hapless victim or captive of sin." This can be said of
EVERY sinner! No one, not one sinner on earth is a "hapless victim or captive
of sin". To say such is to bring a charge against the God of the Universe. He
doesn't punish "victims", He punishes CRIMINALS. If you believe what I just articulated,
then your statement is a non-statement. However, if you believe that their are
sinners who God is going to send to Hell forever who are "victims", then you don't
get your view of what a "sinner" is from the Bible.
not one sinner on earth is a hapless victim of sin, then why does the scripture
call them captives?
1Ti 6:9 But they that
will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and
hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are
taken captive by him at his will.
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same
vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid,
it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded
the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel
of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
suspect perhaps the Lord has not shown you the depths of Satans methods and tactics.
Our struggle is mostly against him. Knowing how he holds people captive is necessary
to being able to preach with power. "Ye shall know the truth and the truth
shall set you free". You have to know the enemy's methods, lies, and tactics,
because not every sinner is the same. There are as many kinds of sinners as there
are many lies, methods, and tactics. Hitchens is not a captive to his sins, he
is the sworn enemy of God.
You said, "He has fought
to destroy faith in God as his life goal. His stated lifetime goal is to destroy
Christianity." Ever heard of the Apostle Paul? He did the same thing...yet God
used Him to write half of the New Testament. I've read testimony after testimony
of enemies of the faith coming to the faith. Maybe you don't really remember what
YOU were like Bro. That may be part of your problem. As Jesus said, "he who has
been forgiven much loves much." What a joy it would be if Christopher Hitchens
got saved and became a FRIEND of God!
you unable to discern the difference between Paul and Hitchens? Paul persecuted
the church because of his love and zeal for God. Hitchens persecutes the church
because of his hatred of God. It would be a real joy if Hitchens got saved, but
I don't think it will happen. I have no problem in having forgotten what I was
like. The enemy keeps my past always before me. I must trust in grace every day,
hundreds of times a day. The accuser of the brethren is always accusing me. As
for Hitchens, in my estimation God has cast him off. If Hitchens suddenly converts
and truly turns to serve God, I will be glad to admit I was wrong. Will you admit
that I was right if he dies in his sins?
In your quoting
of Jeremiah 7:16, are you trying to say that you have "heard from God" regarding
Hitchens? If so, you'd better be right, otherwise you are a false prophet who
will have to answer to God. Yes, God spoke to Jeremiah and told him not to pray
for those people. Does that mean that you, I or anyone else can say who we should
and shouldn't pray for? Be careful Bro, for the tongue has the power of life and
death and a man who fails to keep a tight rein on his tongue has a worthless religion.
answer is yes to all your questions. As far as keeping a tight rein on my tongue,
I do, but apparently you don't think it is necessary for you to do so. This whole
controversy is evidence of your spiritual immaturity. If you thought I had sinned,
you were under obligation to follow Mt 18:15-17. Did you follow the procedure
that the Bible lays down to correct a brother? No, you did not. You blasted it
out to the entire FB world. This indicates that you do not have a tight rein on
your tongue. You certainly did not think it necessary to follow the Bible on this
You said, "Do you think for one moment that Hitchens
is more worthy of mercy than those whom God condemned to hopeless destruction.
Those were the ones who backslide and served other Gods. Is that crime against
God of greater severity than dedicating one's whole life to stamping out all faith
Bro, I am really starting to wonder about you. Do you think
that YOU or I or ANYONE ELSE "deserves" or is "worthy" of mercy? I hope not. This
is the whole foundation of the Gospel! NONE OF US ARE "worthy"! Praise Him, that
in His mercy, He died for ALL, including Mr. Hitchens and all of the other God
Mockers out there.
No I don't believe
that anyone deserves or is worthy of mercy. My point is more that some are more
worthy of judgment than others. You seem to be pleading the case for mercy for
Hitchens, I am pleading the case for his judgment. I used that passage to point
out that Hitchens offenses are greater than those who fell away to other Gods.
They only lost their own souls, but Hitchens has taken untold others with him.
In your quoting of 1 John 5:16, what do you think
that God wants us to do for such a brother, who is committing a "sin unto death"?
It is obvious to me that God wants us to speak up and say something to him. This
isn't a command of "don't pray at all" for this brother. This is a command to
go tell him and do something instead of "just praying" for the brother.
are free to interpret that verse in that manner. But all it says is that John
was not telling us to pray for anyone who is in a sin unto death. There is nothing
in that context that can be interpreted as a commandment to "go and tell
him". While you are free to do that, it is not commanded. My point again
was that if there are instances where I am essentially told to back off and not
pray FOR A BROTHER, then my refusal to not pray for a god hating enemy
of God can not be out of line. Hitchens is well past that sin unto death. Besides
he is no brother. You certainly don't seem to be very strict about adding your
own interpretations to the scriptures.
So, I guess
according to you, we shouldn't pray for ANY sinners AT ALL? If so, please respond
to the Scripture I've already given: 1 Timothy 2:1 says, "Therefore I exhort first
of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made
for ALL MEN." (Emphasis mine).
you are doing what the sinners do on campus - take a statement out of context,
stretch it beyond reason and then use it to condemn. It is called a straw man
argument. I am surprised. I thought you were above the straw man argument. Are
you suggesting I should be giving thanks for Hitchens? Or should I read the next
verse and apply my prayers and intercessions, and thanksgiving for kings and others
in authority, as the context says.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions,
and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are
in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and
You said, "No I contend that Hitchens is way
beyond any hope for redemption." Your "contending" means nothing to me, no offense.
How do you KNOW that Mr. Hitchens is "way beyond any hope for redemption"? Are
you asserting, once again, that God has spoken to you specifically about Mr. Hitchens?
Is this a "thus saith the Lord"? If so, my previous warning is issued again: "
Be careful Bro, for the tongue has the power of life and death and a man who fails
to keep a tight rein on his tongue has a worthless religion."
will say this again. I believe the Lord has shown me that Hitchens is beyond redemption.
One can "know" something without it being a "thus saith god".
At least according to Paul, maybe not to you. Did not Paul say this?
2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered
into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth
all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things
of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth
no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of
the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that
are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words
which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual
things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of
the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth
all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the
mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
believe I am saying what I am saying because I have the mind of Christ. If and
when Hitrchens suddenly repents and turns to truly serve the Lord, I will be glad
to admit my error. If he dies in his sin, you owe me a public apology.
You said, "I am convinced that Hitchens is beyond redemption. And so I prayed.
Did I pray for His death? No. I prayed that God would give him what he has sought
all his life - to cast off all considerations of God. Is that not separation?
In this case it would be eternal separation. But that is Hitchens lifetime purpose."
I'm sorry, but you don't see the numerous contradictions in what you have
said above? So, you didn't pray for his death, but you prayed that God would send
him to Hell? Doesn't someone have to die in order to go to Hell? If so, then didn't
you pray for his death?
No I don't see
any contradictions. Giving Hitchens what he has fought for all his life is a just
thing. The principle at work is the story of when Israel lusted after flesh instead
of manna. What did God do? He gave them the desires of their heart - quail by
the truck load - and judgment along with it. Many died. Was God unjust in giving
them what they wanted instead of what He had provided? No, He was just. To say
that my prayer for God to give Hitchens the desire of his heart is evil places
God's judgment under condemnation. You are making yourself out to be a judge of
the judge. But I don't expect you will be able to see that.
point is that what God has done is righteous, his judgments are righteous and
true. To say otherwise condemns Him. Further down you quote MT 5:48 that we are
to be perfect as He is perfect. If we are perfect we will embody all of His judgments
as our own. If we are like him in every way, we will love and hate as He loves
and hates. The two can not be separated. They are both a part of Him.
said, "There is no evil in hating evil men." HUH?! Talk about calling good evil
and evil good. Are you serious Bro? Here are some CLEAR, DIDACTIC Scriptures on
this very issue. Please deal specifically with them:
says, "You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder,
and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that
whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But
whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."
is not a brother, plus there is cause - a great cause. Can't you read? To hate
evil incarnate is not wrong.
Matthew 5:43-48 says,
"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your
enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good
to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute
you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise
on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For
if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors
do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others?
Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as
your Father in heaven is perfect."
My love for God is the primary commandment,
not my love for men. You seem to be reversing the first commandment with the one
Jesus gave to love our neighbors as ourselves. I love my enemies for the Lord's
sake, but even that is subjugated to my love for God. And the love being spoken
of there is not an emotion. It is willing and doing the best for another human
being, who may even hate me. That I do consistently. But to ask me to choose between
God and Hitchens, I will choose God. If Hitchens makes himself to be an enemy
of God, then he is my enemy. This is why I brought up King David, a man after
God's own heart. David hated those who hated God Tell me, Kerrigan, do you believe
the ENTIRE Bible is inspired, or just the New Testament?
1 John 3:15
says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer
has eternal life abiding in him."
did I ever say I hated Hitchens? I never said I hated Hitchens. I talked about
hatred in a theological discussion, but I never said I hated Hitchens. Go back
and read what I posted. If I wrote that I hated Hitchens, cut and paste it. And
even if I did, my reading of the Bible, the inspired Bible, shows that hatred
can be righteous, if so that what is hated is worthy of hatred. It is anger and
hatred without a cause that is evil. To hate that which God hates can not be a
sin. We are to grow up into Him in all ways. When we are there, we will hold His
love and hatred in our hearts.
You said, "David wrote
that he hated those who hated God. Was he contrary to God in this matter? I don't
think so. He challenged God to search him and know his thoughts and see if there
was any wickedness concerning that hatred. Did God condemn David for this?"
How could you NOT think that David was "contrary to God in this matter" when
you consider the verses I posted above? So, you have taken David's example as
Scripture that teaches you and other Christians how to behave, but you have dismissed
the CLEAR TEACHING of Scripture? Well, if that is the way hermeneutics work, maybe
we should sleep with another man's wife, try to cover it up and then have him
killed. If we did that, we could always justify or write off the Scriptures that
say it is wrong to commit adultery, lie and murder, right?
I believe the Bible is inspired and true. The ENTIRE Bible. In it David was testified
to as having a perfect heart toward God by several prophets, Paul, and God Himself.
That you don't understand what perfection is also evident. If you have not understood
how the OT and NT are harmonized, then you are young and need to press on in the
Lord. There is no contradiction between David and Christians. I also think the
teaching of the scriptures is clear, but obviously not to you. You had to cast
off all the verses I posted before because they clearly pointed to an understanding
that you do not share.
Try this passage on
for your point of view.
Nu 25:6 And, behold,
one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish
woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children
of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw
it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through,
the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from
the children of Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and
10 And the LORD spake unto Moses,
11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath
turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my
sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13 And he shall
have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood;
because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of
In this passage, Phinehas took a spear
and killed two fornicators who were defying the commandment of God. For this act
of zealousness, God gave Phinehas a covenent of an everlasting priesthood. This
is on the order of Jesus - an everlasting priesthood.
know and understand God, you must be able to include this passage in your understanding
of God, because God declared that He never changes, that He is the same yesterday,
today, and forever. It is not two different Gods, but one God who has facets of
His personality that you apparently have excised. That tells me you are not worshiping
God as He truly is, but as you have made Him out to be. Your image of God does
not include aspects of His nature that He has revealed throughout the entire Bible.
And now you castigate me for defending those parts of God that you have denied.
Then you gave some Scriptures talking about David being "perfect" before God and
being a "man after God's own heart", etc. Are you saying that because the Scriptures
state such things that David NEVER did wrong or sinned in all of his life? What
about the example I gave above? Was David "perfect" or a "man after God's own
heart" in the midst of his adultery, lying and murder? I don't think so! Neither
was he "perfect" or a "man after God's own heart" when he hated other people.
How you could say or believe such a thing is beyond me...
I said above your conclusion shows me you have no clue what perfection is. Let
me ask you this. What was the basis of Jesus' perfection, and when did it occur?
I suggest you start to read your Bible to answer this question. Use a concordance.
Find out what the Bible says about Jesus' perfection.
Then you gave the examples of Jezebel, Herod and Ananias and Sapphira. What do
these examples prove? I never said that God wasn't glorified in His judgment or
that He doesn't punish people while they are still alive for their wickedness.
YET, God hasn't done such a thing to Mr. Hitchens and YOU are pronouncing such
judgment upon Mr. Hitchens. Are you the Prophet Elijah? Are you the Apostle Paul?
I don't think so and if you think you are, beware lest you think more highly of
yourself than you ought to - Romans 12:3.
they prove is that God is not averse to immediate judgment, nor for His prophets
and apostles to declare immediate judgment. But in fact, God has done such a thing
to Hitchens. He has been struck by a rather gruesome, painful, and slow death.
Is not cancer the most cruel death one can suffer?
You said, "Do you think that Hitchens is worthy of greater mercy than these two?
All they did was lie to the Holy Spirit. They did not spend a lifetime sending
souls to eternal damnation." All they did was lie to the Holy Spirit?! Somehow,
I don't think that's a "small sin" like you are making it out to be. Once again,
NONE of us are "worthy" of ANY Mercy AT ALL. I don't know why you don't get that
Bro. All of these years preaching in the open air and you don't understand this
fact? And once again, I never said that Mr. Hitchens was "worthy" or mercy or
that he didn't deserve Hell. I just know that God has shown me mercy and I wish
the same for EVERY other human being alive.
are missing my point. If God did not spare Anninias and Saphira, why would God
show mercy to one whose sin is a mountain RANGE by comparison. My discernment
is that Hitchens has been cast off, and his destruction is near. Again, I am not
saying anyone is deserving of mercy, only that Hitchens is MUCH more worthy of
judgment than A & S.
You said, "I contend my prayers
were neither inappropriate nor outside the range of righteous behavior. Hitchens
is an enemy of God, and ought to be hated, as David hated the enemies of God."
And I tell you that you are a Hell bound sinner for saying such a thing let alone
actually hating him. You need repentance as badly as Mr. Hitchens does. You may
be as blind as him too, for you think you can be saved and be a child of God and
hate someone at the same time...even when the Scriptures say the exact opposite.
I never said I hated Hitchens. You inferred it. I shared many verses earlier about
how God hates individuals, but you rejected those verses. I shared many verses
that say we are to grow up into Jesus in every way, and He is God. I left out
verses that show that Jesus' anointing was based upon hatred as well as love.
1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre
of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness,
and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with
the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
though Jesus hates iniquity and God hates Esau and sinners, if I even say such
a thing, I will go to Hell? Are you sure about that? Oh, and BTW, I
never said I hated Hitchens. The hypocrisy here is astounding.
You said, "Further I want the Lord to bring such explicit and unmistakable judgment
to bear on him that "great fear will come upon as many as hear of it". Let there
be no question that it was God who poured indignation on him, so that all those
who have followed after his pernicious ways might understand and fear for their
I literally fear for your soul Bro. Wake up! There is no
question that IF God chose to do such a thing, many would see that God did it
and many would fear. BUT, you have NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER to pronounce such judgment
upon anyone, neither do you have a right to wish it upon someone. The fact that
you do shows the state of your heart.
is not you that grants me authority, nor does it depend upon your acceptance.
What authority I have comes from God. Your entire position is based upon unbelief.
You sound like a godless student.
Then you quoted
Rev. 14:7, "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the
hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and
the sea, and the fountains of waters." This is what you don't seem to get Bro.
You DO understand that this time HAS NOT come yet, right? The "hour of His judgment"
is at the VERY END! We are not at the very end. God is still giving sinners time
to repent, still drawing sinners near, still convicting the WORLD of sin, righteousness
and judgment. Sinners still have time!
is you that does not understand. That time has already begun. The entire tribulation
period is the time of the judgment of God - first of the church, and then later
of the world. The time of mercy is coming to a close. Jesus said in MT 24:14 And
this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto
all nations; and then shall the end come. The explosion of street and campus
preachers all over the world, an event that the world has never before seen, is
the sign. It is also the sign that the judgment of the church is underway. But
given the level of understanding I've seen in this debate, I doubt you can see
You said, "I believe you are in error in thinking
that what I prayed was pronouncing judgment, as opposed to asking God for judgment."
Wrong, you DID pronounce judgment Bro. You said that he is beyond redemption.
You basically called him a reprobate. If that isn't "pronouncing judgment" then
I don't know what is!
would be if I said something like "You have been judged and found wanting.
This day your life is required of you." or "In (fill
in number) days you will die." I did not pronounce judgment. If I
had, I would have set the deadline for it to occur, and it would have occurred.
Instead I asked God to intervene and give Hitchens the desire of his heart. Asking
God to judge can not be evil, because God declares himself a God of judgment.
Here are some more scriptures to reject out of hand because they do not harmonize
with your image of God.
De 32:4 He is the
Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth
and without iniquity, just and right is he.
61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and
I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with
Ps 33:5 He loveth righteousness and
judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they
are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
9:7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment
to the people in uprightness.
Php 1:9 ¶ And
this I pray, that your love may abound yet more
and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
I had pronounced judgment, and God is the God of judgment, and He loves judgment,
why would He send someone to Hell for judging the likes of Hitchens. Your theology
does not hold up to Biblical review.
Then you quoted
a bunch of Scriptures regarding Prophets who long for God's judgment. What's your
point? How does longing for God's judgment justify you hating another human being,
calling him a reprobate and asking God to give him what "he deserves"?
again, I never said I hated Hitchens. I also don't remember writing anything like
you accuse me of. "give him what he deserves"?? I read all that I wrote,
and did not see anything about giving him what he deserves. After 33 years of
preaching, I recognize what you are doing. Lying demons always twist what is being
said in order to bring division. You are listening to them.
Then you gave some Scriptures talking about the Saints judging. Amen, I agree...but
didn't you notice the same theme in each of those statements? They are ALL referring
to the Millennial Reign of Christ! We are NOT yet in that Millennial Reign, it
is still in the FUTURE. Now, I'm not by any means saying that we can't judge people
righteously or tell them that they are on their way to Hell should they die in
their current state. I'm also not saying that we shouldn't tell people they are
wrong, etc. I deal with this all of the time in the open air.
with all of that said, what you have been saying about Mr. Hitchens does NOT fall
into any such category. Even in the Millennial Kingdom, do you really think that
we will have the liberty to hate other people? That's simply absurd and unfounded
on the Scriptures! Bro, you have no right to hate anyone, for any reason. You
are to LOVE all people. Only God has the right to hate anyone and even His hatred
isn't like the hatred we see from mankind. His "hatred" is a perfect, holy hatred.
I did a video on this a while back. Here is the link to it:
this one question. I asked it before but you ignored it.
If Jesus is God:
(2) If Jesus was anointed not only for his love but also
His hatred of iniquity:
(3) If we are to grow up into Him in all things:
If God hated individuals (Esau, sinners Ps 5)
(5) If we are to become like
Jesus in every way, and be filled with all the fulness of God, how can we not
also have hatred for what is hate worthy?
God hates, as He says He does, how can you say that hate is sin? You are requiring
man to be better than God!! If we are only allowed to love and no hate is allowed,
are we not better than God? You see hatred as evil. If we can only love and have
no hatred, then we are more holy than God because God hates. If hate is evil and
we have none, but God does, are we not better than God? On the other hand, if
we can not have any hate, but God does, how can we become like Him in every way?
Either hate is not evil per se, or your understanding of what we are to become
is really screwed up. It is obvious to me that you have no understanding about
what constitutes perfect, holy hatred. You don't even know what perfection is
You said, "Even if I had pronounced judgment,
which I did not, it would not have been wrong. Those whom God sends out to preach
are given authority to judge, and in some limited sense to execute the judgment.
Paul smote Barjesus blind. Peter rebuked and Ananias and Saphirra dropped dead."
I've already addressed this a couple of times in my responses, but I will say
it again, YOU DID pronounce judgment upon Mr. Hitchens when you said that he was
beyond redemption! Are you the Apostle Paul? Are you the Apostle Peter? Have you
personally heard from God regarding Mr. Hitchens' situation? I doubt you have.
Yes, we DO have the ability to judge in a "limited sense". That sense is described
above in this post.
I answered this
above. I believe, as an apostle, I have the mind of Christ. As such it is my spiritual
discernment that he is beyond redemption.
"MT 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart
out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto
you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day
of judgment, than for that city."
Right, but how do these two Scriptures
justify your personal hatred for Mr. Hitchens or wishing for God to "give him
what he deserves"?
Find in my posts where
I said either one of those things. You inferred as much, but I never said either
You said, "John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit,
they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
You may wish to not be included in that company. It is your right to want not
to judge. But it is also my right to be included in that company. And to that
end, I am striving to be being trained, mainly through the preaching ministry,
but not only so."
What are you saying here Bro? Are you saying that
you have the power, ability and authority from God to forgive someone of their
sins or to unconditionally condemn them to Hell? That God leaves His final judgment
up to you? Please tell me that you aren't saying that. You are sounding more like
a Roman Catholic if that is your position...
authority was given to all His apostles. As an apostle, I share in them. In my
lifetime, I have prayed for judgments and God has honored the requests. The judgments
happened just as I asked. In addition, as a result somewhere around 800 died as
a result of those judgments prayers. It appears to me that God has given me that
You said, "There is no fault even in declaring
judgment, if the judge is righteous and the judgment in accord with God. A major
reason for the dire straits that the church is in is that the church refuses to
judge righteously, even as Israel refused to judge and was taken away into judgment.
One of the things that God found delightful in Abraham was that God knew he WOULD
There is no argument here. I agree with what I just quoted above.
The problem I have is that the judgment YOU have made against Mr. Hitchens and
the hatred you have towards him is NOT "in accord with God." That's the whole
reason I am responding to everything you have said. Even though God loves judgment,
He loves MERCY EVEN MORE! As Matthew 9:13 says, "But go and learn what this means:
‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous,
but sinners, to repentance.” Mr. Hitchens is a sinner, just like I used to be
and God is calling him to repentance.
I say amen to 1 Cor. 2:15. I use
it all the time in the open air to come against the "thou shalt not judge" critics.
Yet, if you hate another person Bro, you are NOT a spiritual man. Therefore you
ARE being judged, BY ME...righteously and according to God's Word. You need to
repent of your hatred of Mr. Hitchens.
You said, "Judgment is to be given
to the saints. The two greatest preachers of all time will be the two witnesses.
They will be empowered to judge and to execute judgment in any way they choose.
Anyone who even wants to harm them MUST be killed by the fire that proceeds out
of their mouths."
Once again, the judgment given to the saints is in
the future, as all of your verses made very clear. You are NOT one of the two
witnesses Bro. I hope that you understand that. Oh, and by the way, they will
not be empowered to "judge and execute judgment in any way the choose." They,
like ALL Christians will execute judgment righteously, according to God's Holy
will! If they did anything short of that, God would have to judge them Himself!
What do the scriptures say?
Re 11:3 And I
will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two
hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive
trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their
enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:
and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with
all plagues, as often as they will.
two will have the mind of Christ. All of their judgments and every one they kill
will be righteous. What do you think it means to be able to smite the earth as
often as they will?
You said, "Perhaps it is I
that should be correcting you for not judging Hitchens. I consider this drawing
back from judgment to be the incursion of humanism into the church. It is the
world that does not want us to judge. Jesus commanded righteous judgment. What
could be more righteous than judging an avowed enemy of God?"
mistaken Bro. Mr. Hitchens, as he currently stands, is on his way to Hell, is
deserving of it, does not deserve the mercy of God (neither is he worthy of it),
is an enemy of God and will get what he deserves if he doesn't repent of his sins,
trust in the atonement God has provided and begin to walk a life of holiness.
Did you read all of what I just said right above? Now THAT is RIGHTEOUS
JUDGMENT. What you have been saying throughout this entire thread has NOT been
"righteous judgment". We are not "humanists" and for someone to accuse us of such
(John or I) is completely laughable. It shows that you know nothing about us.
You have not simply "judged an avowed enemy of God" Bro. You have hated him, called
him a reprobate and said that you hope he gets what he deserves.
see no difference. Since I never stated that I hated Hitchens, and only prayed
that he gets what he has wanted all his life, your accusations sound like a lying
demon on campus. I never stated that I hated him. I never called him a reprobate.
I never said anything about getting what he deserves. Sure I voiced my discernment
that he is beyond redemption, but so what? What sin is there in voicing one's
discernment? In my life, I have prayed for various judgments and around 800 have
died as a result. I have been asked on a couple of occasions by relatives to pray
that people would pass quickly. I did, and they died within a day. Flap your gums
if you want. I have track record. If I had prayed for Hitchens and pronounced
judgment, he would be dead today.
That is NOT the heart of God.
Here's the heart of God concerning the wicked:
Ezekiel 33:11 says, "As
I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but
that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways!"
Ezekiel 18:32 says, "For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,”
says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”
John 3:16-17 says, "For
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes
in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son
into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
Romans 5:6-8 says, "For when we were still without strength, in due time
Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet
perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His
own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
2 Peter 3:9 says, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some
count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance."
I pray that you will reconsider
your position Bro and that you will repent of your hatred of Mr. Hitchens. You
are terribly off in your doctrine and need to be realigned with the Scriptures.
I don't hate Hitchens. Never
said I did. You inferred it, or a little accuser whispered it into you ear.
for the scriptures above, they are all true. But they are irrelevant after someone
is cast off. Once God decides to give up on someone, once someone is beyond redemption,
the verses above no longer apply. That person can only deal with God in His wrath
and righteous judgment.
from previous post:
As you have rejected my
judgment of Hitchens, so too do I reject your judgment of me. You have judged
me harsher than I did Hitchens. I point out that your position reeks of hyprocrisy.
(1) If God hates the workers of iniquity, and Jesus is God:
(2) If Jesus
was anointed not only for his love but also His hatred of iniquity:
we are to grow up into Him in all things:
(4) Then at some time, in addition
to willing the salvation of sinners, we will have to develop the strong hatred
of evil that God possesses. That includes hatred at a personal level. God declared
that He hated Esau. Jacob He loved but Esau He hated.
Let me ask you
this, Kerrigan. The standard of the Love of God requires that we "hate" our parents
in comparison. Are you ready right now to drag your parents to the lake of fire
and throw them in?
You are young, and I will show you grace in this.
You have a ways to go yet. I won't comment on most of the scriptures you used.
My theology takes them into account. But it is you that negates those scriptures
that I used to explain my statement. A large portion of scripture depict God's
anger and hatred, yet you have factored that out of your theology. I try not to
dismiss scriptures as you do.
I take on those scriptures that are "negative"
from the world's perspective of God (and you are most assuredly mimicking the
world's view of what God must be like in some of what you wrote). I made them
my goal to understand. All that the scriptures say need to be harmoniously incorporated
into our theology. That is what I have tried to do.
You can not separate
out only the love of God and try to mold yourself to that image - because it is
not the image of God. Both love and hate are in His character. It is abundantly
clear that you do not understand the other side of God.
several times that verses I used applied to the future, as if you know we are
not at that time yet. You are wrong. The judgment of the church has already begun.
The winds of war are blowing across the landscape, and we are at very close to
the time when Satan will be given the power to wage war on the saints and to overcome
them. That is part of the judgment of the church.
You question whether
I heard from God about Hitchens. Even if I told you I had, would you believe it?
You question whether I am the apostle Paul or Peter. Obviously I am not Paul or
Peter. But I am an apostle. And the word that God gave the day I was told of my
ministry was that my ministry would be as great as Paul's. That was spoken of
me in 1976. Since then the Lord has been teaching me with the apparent goal of
untangling the doctrinal mess the church is in. In all honesty, I don't see how
it is possible, but I can tell what my training is pointed to, and am looking
forward to seeing a door open.
Feel free to exercise all the unbelief
you possess. I don't care. If God said it, it will happen. You also asserted that
I am not one of the two witnesses. I am not claiming to be. But your incredulity
will prevent you from recognizing them when they come. Kerrigan, God is still
giving apostles and prophets to the church. And somebody will be the two witnesses.
I find a lot of unbelief in what you wrote. There are large portions
of God's character that you have excised and set aside. But like I said, you are
young and your eyes have yet to be opened to some things.
What a long post full of false accusations and ambiguous nonsense! If you would
like to bring a charge against me or my theology, please be specific. I addressed
everything you said in a very specific manner and you basically reply with, ..."you
are a young guy who doesn't know anything about God and His character and I am
an apostle who God has revealed everything to. You have a lot to learn sonny..."
I have to reply that way because
you obviously, to me, do not have the proper spiritual foundation to understand
what I am saying. No offence meant, but the word elder is in our Christian vocabulary
because not everyone is at the same level of spiritual understanding. You have
categorically refused to address any of the dozens of verses I have quoted. And
then you accuse me of that same thing? Answer my questions and deal with my scriptures
before you accuse me of what you yourself are doing.
You're joking right Bro? I assert that you WON'T respond to everything I said
in a SPECIFIC manner because you CAN'T. My theology SURE DOES incorporate the
hatred of God into it. I hate sin and evil like He does, I just don't hate SINNERS
because I have no right to. He created them and therefore has a right to a perfect
and holy hatred of them. You, I and the rest of the human race have never created
one person and we never will. We, therefore, will NEVER have the right to hate
Well, I have responded to
everything you have said paragraph by paragraph, including scriptural references
to back up what I am saying. Still, I predict you will accuse me of not overcoming
your scriptural basis. In reality, you have yet to address the many verses I quoted
in my original defense. You have written a lot of your own opinion, but it doesn't
hold up to Biblical review.
Bro, until you respond
to everything I said in my four large posts above, and in a specific manner, don't
even bother discussing this with me further. It would be a waste of my time. I
pray that you come to repentance and see the TRUE Character of the God of the
Bible and what He expects of YOU.
Way to quote me out of context Bro. This
is WHY I said, "I seriously doubt it will ever happen": "you have A LOT of Scripture
and logical reasoning to overcome in order for me to believe what you believe."
I am not asking you to believe as I do.
All I have been trying to do all along is to show you that there is much much
more to learn about God. I believe I have the mind of Christ and you do not. Your
image of God is not complete. And that is a problem because without a full image
of God in your mind, you will not be able to grow up into Him in all ways. You
will reject what is expected of you because it will not fit with your partial
image. When you reject things about God because you don't understand them, and
then make judgments based upon that faulty image, you are in great error. However,
I forgive you for your sin against me.
I am not being
"prideful". If being "prideful" is being confident that your position is Biblical
and that it incorporates all the Scripture to bring harmony, then I guess that
you are "prideful" too! Talk about the "pot calling the kettle black".
hardly. The views that you have written do not take into account all scriptures.
You have mostly either ignored or rejected almost every verse I have given you.
And the reason usually came down to the fact that the verse does not fit your
theology. You will have to learn this lesson, and the learning of it might be
hard. When there are verses that are exactly contradictory to your views, your
views are wrong. Seek God for the revelation of what the truth is.
I'm not answering one more of your questions until you respond to EVERYTHING that
I said. This is not an "interrogation". If you want to have a "dialogue", then
go back an answer all of my questions and objections to your position. Otherwise,
like I already said, don't bother discussing this with me. You are wasting my
Bro, I have to say, I think that you are seriously confused about my position.
I think you really need to look over what I said and read it very carefully. I
have no problem with Judgment or telling someone that they are on their way to
Hell in their current state. That is EXACTLY what I did to you. You said that
you hate other human beings, specifically Mr. Hitchens, hatred is sin according
to the Bible, therefore you are currently a sinner who is on his way to Hell.
And where did I say this?
Where did I say I hated Hitchens? And how can you reconcile your statement of
hatred being a sin with the fact that Jesus hated, yet He was without sin? And
by your own standard of judgment you are also going to Hell. You did to me what
I did to Hitchens and you are without guilt? You hypocrite. If you think that
my prayer that Hitchens be given what He has always wanted is any different then
you consigning my soul to Hell, you are more deluded than I thought.
What I did to you is NOT what you have been doing to Mr. Hitchens though. Don't
make this into something it is NOT- judging vs. not judging. That is NOT what
it is about and you know it. You have said repeatedly that you hope that Mr. Hitchens
gets what he deserves and hope that God gives Him Hell and that you HATE him.
I don't hope that God gives you what you deserve, I don't hope that you go to
Hell and I do NOT hate you or any other human for that matter!
have said repeatedly that you hope that Mr. Hitchens gets what he deserves and
hope that God gives Him Hell and that you HATE him." Would
you mind copying and pasting where I said these things? I've looked through the
posts 3 times and have not found them. Like I said before I think you are listening
to a lying demon.
Judging you righteously
is NOT a sin, it is BIBLICAL! You have been unrighteous in your attitude toward
Mr. Hitchens. I have been righteous in my attitude toward you. Who said anything
about the "all sin is equal junk"? When did I EVER say such a thing? And who said
that hating evil is a bad thing? You have no right to hate the actual PEOPLE who
do evil, as I have already articulate many times.
am commanded to will and to do what is best for them, which is love and which
I do. But God hates the workers of iniquity. I have every right to hate the workers
of iniquity because I was made in the image of God by the hand of Jesus Christ.
If you do not hate the workers of iniquity, you can not be in the image of God.
At least not the God of the Bible.
You know, you keep
saying things like I have "drifted", that I am "off the mark", that I am "prideful",
that the way I understand God is the way that the "natural man" understands God.
This is all nonsense. You make outlandish assertions and then say nothing to back
them up. NO Scripture, no reason, no anything.
Bro Cope, in regards to my assertion that you are judging Hitchens when you
have no authority to do so, you wrote:
"I am convinced that Hitchens
is beyond redemption."
Q1: This is a judgment, but how do you prove it
It is a discernment. Can discernment
" And so I prayed. Did I pray for His
death? No. I prayed that God would give him what he has sought all his life -
to cast off all considerations of God. Is that not separation? In this case it
would be eternal separation. But that is Hitchens lifetime purpose."
Why not pray for God to soften Hitchen's heart? Why not pray for God to have mercy?
my discernment is true, and I believe it is, then that person has been cast off
by God. To pray as you suggest would set me against God, even to the level of
sin. If I pray for God to have mercy on someone that He has cast off, then I would
be elevating my judgment as superior to God's. I think it would be judging God
as not having a righteous judgment.
Q4&5: Does God
love mercy above justice? Do you love like God loves?
looked but could not find any verses in the Bible that say that God loves mercy
above justice. There were no hits on love mercy and justice
were ten on love and mercy. Most of them are about God showing mercy to those
who love Him. If there is a verse that is eluding me, let me know.
Ex 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
De 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my
De 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the
faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep
his commandments to a thousand generations;
Ne 1:5 ¶ And said, I beseech thee,
O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy
for them that love him and observe his commandments:
Da 9:4 ¶ And I prayed
unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and
dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them
that keep his commandments;
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good;
and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and
to walk humbly with thy God?
Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for
his great love wherewith he loved us,
2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and
peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father,
in truth and love.
Jude 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our
Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (KJV)
do love as God loves. Do you hate what God hates? If you treat that which God
loves the same as what God hates, then is there any difference between them? I
have often defended Hell on campus by saying that if God treated righteousness
and iniquity the same then there would be no difference between righteousness
and iniquity. God created Hell to make the distinction between good and evil as
stark as possible. Hell is a testimony to God's love for what is righteous and
good and hatred of what is evil.
is right would be meaningless unless God also hates what is unrighteous. There
must be distinction. Treating righteousness and unrighteousness alike are a denial
of righteousness. So too, the love of God without the hate of God is a denial
of God's love. It is the hate of God that forms the vast distinction needed between
good and evil. Both are needed. God's love without His hate would be a universe
with only a heaven, and no Hell. A universe with only a heaven is impossible.
If there is a heaven, there must bee a Hell. All of eternity would be destroyed
if the righteous go to heaven and the wicked just skate. Just as universalism
is a denial of the gospel, God's love without His hatred is a denial of the fulness